195. The Sleep Mistakes Keeping You Exhausted (and How to Fix Them) with Sleep Physician Dr. Akudo Anokwute

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Getting eight hours of sleep but still waking up exhausted? 

Maybe you’ve tried magnesium, going to bed earlier, or even banishing your snoring partner to the spare room (yep, that’s officially called a “sleep divorce”), and you’re still tired. 

It turns out that some of your best efforts to sleep better might actually be making things worse.

I recently sat down with sleep physician Dr. Akudo Anokwute, co-owner of Dreamland Health and Wellness, to get practical about what really stands between you and restorative sleep. 

We talked about why going to bed earlier can backfire, the sleep position that could be sabotaging your rest, and the sneaky signs of sleep apnea, especially in women. Here are the biggest takeaways from our conversation.

Why You’re Still Tired After Eight Hours

When a patient tells Dr. Anokwute they’re sleeping eight hours but still exhausted, her first question is whether that sleep is actually consolidated. Two hours here, a nap there and three hours later isn’t the same as a solid night. 

From there, she looks at the bigger picture: sleep apnea, insomnia, pain, thyroid problems, low vitamin D, B12 or ferritin, and medications that might be affecting your energy. Fatigue has many possible causes, so if you’re persistently tired, it’s worth having a thorough conversation with your doctor rather than guessing.

Small Habits That Make a Big Difference

If your sleep has been off for a few stressful weeks, Dr. Anokwute starts with the basics. The most important one is your wake-up time. Waking at different times on weekdays and weekends confuses your circadian rhythm, so aim to keep it consistent. If that feels unrealistic during holidays or summer break, try to keep the difference within 30 to 60 minutes rather than sleeping in for three hours.

She also recommends giving yourself at least three to four hours between your last meal or workout and bedtime. Both keep your body working, digesting food or raising your heart rate, when it should be winding down. (I’ll admit I’m guilty of using evening carbs to relax, so this one hit home!)

One of the most surprising insights was about going to bed earlier. If you’re not falling asleep until 11, getting into bed at 9 won’t help you sleep sooner. It just means more time lying awake, which can actually make insomnia worse. A better approach is to work with your body’s natural clock.

Why Your Favorite Show Keeps You Awake

Most of us know that the light from screens can interfere with sleep, but Dr. Anokwute also pointed out how the area of the brain that keeps you awake also handles planning, thinking and excitement. So whether you’re watching a show you love or lying in bed going over tomorrow’s to-do list, you’re effectively flipping your wakefulness switch to “on.”

That’s why her advice is to choose something a little boring in the hour or two before bed. Reach for a manual or a book you’d never normally pick up, put on a podcast that won’t hold your attention, or do something relaxing like taking a warm shower or a face mask.

Sleep Apnea Is More Than Just Snoring

Sleep apnea happens when your upper airway partially or fully collapses during sleep, which reduces oxygen to your brain, heart and the rest of your body. Snoring is the classic sign, but women in particular may experience it as insomnia instead. Other signs to look out for include:

• Waking up with unexplained headaches
• Hitting a wall of exhaustion around 2 p.m.
• Nodding off while watching TV
• Frequent nighttime awakenings

If any of these sound familiar, ask about getting tested. Treatment doesn’t have to mean a CPAP machine, either. Options include oral appliances, Inspire, Zepbound and lifestyle changes. For mild cases, sleeping on your side with your head elevated can help, because sleeping on your back allows gravity to make that airway collapse worse.

Poor Sleep in Menopause Isn’t Inevitable

Lower estrogen during menopause can increase the risk of insomnia and sleep apnea, but Dr. Anokwute was clear that these aren’t simply symptoms you have to put up with. Both are treatable, and hormone therapy may help with other menopausal symptoms too. If you’re waking at 3 a.m. every night, it’s worth getting checked.

Popular Sleep Trends: The Verdict

We ended with a rapid-fire round on some popular sleep trends:

• Mouth taping: No. It silences snoring without treating the obstruction behind it.
• Magnesium: Overrated unless you’re actually deficient. Find out why you’re not sleeping first.
• White noise: Yes!
• Hitting the ‘snooze’ button: No. Stick to a consistent wake-up time.
• Sleep scores: Helpful for flagging issues like dipping oxygen, but don’t let a number tell you how you feel.
• Sleep divorce: Not ideal, especially when snoring is the cause, because it’s often treatable.
• Sleeping pills: Useful short term, but CBT-I (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia) is the gold standard.

The Missing Piece in Weight Loss

If you’re putting a lot of effort into nutrition and exercise but still feel stuck, take a closer look at your sleep. Aim for seven to nine hours, and get any underlying sleep disorder treated. As Dr. Anokwute put it, sleep is part of the foundation if you want to get the most from your efforts.

Want to hear the full conversation? Listen to the complete episode for even more practical sleep tips from Dr. Akudo Anokwute.

TRANSCRIPT:

Disclaimer: The transcript below is provided for your convenience and may contain typos, errors, or grammatical inconsistencies, as it has not been professionally edited or proofread. Please enjoy it as-is and read at your own discretion.

Please note: The content shared in this podcast and blog post is for informational and educational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider for personalized medical guidance.  

 Welcome back to the podcast. Today's conversation is gonna be a really good one, because we're talking about something that almost everyone wants but so many people struggle to get, and that's truly restorative sleep. My guest today is Dr. Akudo Anakwaete. She and her husband own Dreamland Health and Wellness, where they practice primary care, but she specifically does a lot of sleep medicine, and she's specialized in that. So that's why I'm bringing her on today. Now, you all know, if you've listened to the podcast for a long time, I don't bring random people on. So the way that I met her, I went to an Indiana direct care physician meetup, and there were a lot of specialists and primary care and everything like that, and I was talking to everyone. And at the end, we're sitting there talking, and I'm like, "I need to bring you on the podcast" because it was just really great how you were talking about things. So I always like to let people know why you're coming on. Today we're not gonna do a, like, a broad medicine lecture about sleep. That's really not what we're here to do. We're gonna make this really practical. So we're gonna be talking about some of the most common reasons that maybe some people aren't sleeping well, some things to think about, how do hormones play into it, perimenopause, menopause. So can we start out with you just introducing yourself, and tell us a little bit more about how did you come into practicing in this area? Yes. Thank you so much, Matthea. Such a good-   time to be here. So my name is Akudo Anokwute. I am a sleep doctor. My background is in internal medicine. The story about sleep medicine is so funny 'cause I'm originally Nigerian, and back in my country, most people didn't know about snoring. So they thought that when people snore, they're actually sleeping really well and, in some kind of deep stage of sleep. And so when I came and started my residency, I'm like, "Hey, this is different," right? I didn't get a lot of lectures on sleep anyways. However, we did get one lecture on sleep apnea, and that was an eye-opener, and that was what led me to getting my fellowship training in sleep medicine, and that's the story from there. I... Okay, that is so fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I love how culturally we all have a different understanding with things. Is it now in Nigeria, are they now learning that? Are they now doing a screening for sleep apnea, things like that? Or what's the, where's the state there? So things are much better, but not nearly as things are here, right? Okay. So and that is really one of the reasons why I love educating. I wanna talk to more people about sleep apnea. I do get a lot of invitations, a lot of side co- consults from people over there asking me questions about sleep apnea in the pediatric population, in adults, and other things like that. So it's getting better, but still not there. That's, it's so fascinating. So let's say that you have a person in front of you, and they're like, "Hey, I've slept for eight hours, but I wake up, and I'm still exhausted." I feel like this is really common. Like- Yes ... majority of my patients have some version of fatigue, exhaustion, right? Mm-hmm. And what are some of the things that go through your mind from a sleep perspective? Yes, and that's a really good question. So the first thing I want to find out is how much sleep is consolidated, someone could say, "I'm sleeping for eight hours," but, that sleep is all broken. It's two hours here, two hours with a nap time, and then three hours later in the day, all over the place. I wanna make sure, are you having consistent eight hours of sleep, or is it all disrupted sleep? Are there other things that could be playing a role affecting the quality of your sleep if you are really having consolidated sleep? Could you have sleep apnea? If you don't have sleep apnea, are there other medical problems that could play a role? Are you experiencing pain? Do you have insomnia? Do you have any kind of thyroid disorders? Do you have any vitamin deficiencies, like vitamin B12, vitamin D? Are you low on ferritin? So those are other things that I think about. Do you have other sleep problems beyond sleep apnea, like narcolepsy and things like that? So I'm always thinking, asking questions. Are there medications that are impacting on your sleep that could be making you exhausted even though you're getting enough sleep? So that's really how I think through that. When you're talking about that, I'm like, you are internal medicine like me. I know. I love it. Yeah. Anyone who's listening the differential is broad, right? Yeah. That's the word they use in medicine for kind of all the things we're thinking about. Whenever I hear you say something like this, I'm thinking in my mind, gosh, people really need a good physician, because everyone, every physician's not doing this. 'Cause it's so broad what can be causing it. So let's say that someone comes in, and let's assume that they have met with their doctor they're getting the appropriate things. Are there any first steps that people can take to getting better sleep, just in general? And let's assume, I like to say this as a caveat, it's not like chronic insomnia where for years on end you've been getting poor sleep, but this is maybe a situational, you know, like six, eight weeks, maybe stressed at work, things like that. Yes. Okay. So the first thing I wanna know is what time are you waking up? 'Cause I do see a lot of people have different times of awakenings on weekdays and on weekends, and so that affects their circadian rhythm. So I wanna know, what is your wake-up time? Are you sticking to a set wake-up time? And if you are, great. Then we look at what happens before bed. Are you drinking alcohol too close to bed? Are you eating too close to bed? Are you ex- exercising too close to bed? Are you engaging in worry, anxiety, stress close to bed? Because those are things that will definitely impact on how soon you can fall asleep, and so we take care of those as well. And then if you're able to fall asleep quickly, but then you feel like you're waking up multiple times a night, then we're thinking about insomnia. What's really waking you up? Are you going through menopause? What's happening and how can we look into that? So those are really the things that I look at. Okay, I have so many questions for you here. What are your... So I feel like, well, we won't talk much about alcohol, 'cause I feel like I've talked- Right ... a lot about that, how you're robbing yourself of deep sleep, and- Right ... everyone will link in the show notes if you wanna listen to that. But what are your thoughts on how late eating is a problem or exercise? What are your thoughts on when that should stop relative to bedtime? Exactly. So three hours, I always say three hours. Give at least three. If you can do four hours, great, because you don't want to eat too close to bed. You do not want to exercise too close. These are things that will keep your mind engaged, kinda keep your body awake and running you eat too close, the body has to metabolize that food. Same with exercise. You increase your heart rate, your, your blood pressure. All of that could go up from exercise. That's not the right time, because you kinda want to be in a relaxing state when you're, when it's close to bedtime. So three to four hours is really what I would say. Gosh, I'm so guilty of not doing that. You know what's interesting is- ... and this is like something that I've had to work through over the years with working on my weight set point, is that the, the eating at night often with the carbs, it's very sedating, right? Especially if you're kind of really amped up at night. It's like- Yeah ... you get used to... It's something I've... Really, it's honestly been really hard to break that, no, that's not gonna be the way that we're gonna wind down at the end of the day. So when you bring that up, oh, my Lord, if I go to bed at 9:00, three to four hours it's a pretty early dinner. And that's okay, 'cause that's what I do anyway. Yeah. But I mean, what are your thoughts on, I find I'm pretty regular with the wake-up time, right? Like, every day, 5:30 I'm up, I do the walk, da, da, da. But, when kids are off of school, summers, things like that, yeah, there is a little bit of variance. Are you saying no, you still keep the same schedule at those times too? I would. I would. And that, that could be really tough. I do see a lot of my patients like, "That is not practical." And I say, "That's fine. Can we do 30 minutes to one hour? I do not want three hours." And and I see that a lot also with my adolescents. They are unable to keep set wake-up time when they're on vacation or when they're on holidays. So I would say, "Okay, can we do 30 minutes, one hour? What can we do?" Yeah. But the best thing is to maintain the same wake-up time. And, you know that when you, when it gets to that time and you just wake up, it tells you that your body has aligned to that circadian rhythm. The Labor Day holiday was just here. We went to my sister in Kansas City, and we were there for a few days with my niece. Anyway, the point is, yeah, I, at 5:30, even though we're Eastern and not Central, so it's an hour before- Yeah ... my body was like, "Boing," like, it's time to get up. So- Right ... I definitely, I definitely hear you on that. And then the other thing you were mentioning with menopause, are you going through d- that affecting sleep. Is that a given that it will always be frag- start to be fragmented at that point, or is that just some people? Well, most people, yeah, most people do experience lots of sleep issues during menopause. And there are reasons, right? Low estrogen can, predispose to all of that. And we're not just talking about, hot flashes and all of that. We're talking about things like sleep apnea, right? Insomnia and sleep apnea are big, big things that women in menopause will experience. But the thing is this, not just brushing it off as, "Okay, this is menopause, it has to be," because these things can be treated. Sleep apnea can be treated. Insomnia can be treated. So basically, not accepting these things as part of menopause is the point. Okay. 'Cause I think a common misconception is that, oh, just as you age, you just suddenly don't get great sleep, and you're, up at 3:00 in the morning or something like that. You're saying that's not the case. It's not. It could happen, but don't accept it, because you can get treated. You can get treated for insomnia. You can get treated for menopausal symptoms with hormone replacement as well. That may not necessarily treat your sleep apnea, but there is treatment for any of these life changes during menopause. Definitely. Yeah. W- can you walk us through, what are some, some reasons, I know there's a bunch, but what are some reasons that someone might wanna get screened for sleep apnea, and what does it actually do to the body? Because I think people think, "Oh, it's just, like, this little sleep disturbance." And can you kind of explain how impactful that that can be? Yes. So I'll start from that last point. So what is sleep apnea? This is when the upper airway collapses, whether it's complete or partial, and that means that when you sleep, you're not getting enough oxygen. So you wanna think about the different organs in the body that are not getting enough oxygen. The big ones would be the brain and the heart. However, the entire body is not getting oxygen. I have received referrals from eye doctors wanting me to evaluate for sleep apnea, because they think that sleep apnea is contributing to glaucoma and things like that. So it's all about the whole body being deprived of oxygen. And how can this present? Snoring is the big one. May not be in everyone, especially in women, could present more with insomnia. So snoring, nighttime awakenings can be major symptoms. But there are other things, like you wake up, you have a headache, and you can't explain why. You feel so tired and sleepy during the day. Sometime around 2:00 PM, it's like you've hit a wall. You're exhausted continually. You just can't stay awake. You're watching a show, and you're falling asleep. Those are all symptoms of sleep apnea that should definitely, um, warrant testing. Definitely. I find people are very resistant to getting tested. And is there any magic to, like, a phrase, or how do you kind of talk to patients? Because it's, it's, it's interesting that so many people could probably benefit from this, but they think, "Oh, I wouldn't want the machine," or, you know, whatever it is. So what do you tell people? Yes. So I educate, because education is key. I go through the, what happens. If I have pictures, I show them. I show them the anatomy of the upper airway, show them where their obstruction is happening, and I show them the different complications that could happen if sleep apnea is not treated. So I do a ton of education. And then I talk about treatment, and I say, "Hey, have you seen someone who has sleep apnea? What are they doing? How are they treating?" And they say, "CPAP, I'm not sure I want that." I'm say, "That's fine. There are other treatment options." So I talk about the pathophysiology of sleep apnea. I talk about complications, and I talk about treatment. I tell them there are so many options. If you don't want the PAP machine, we can get an oral appliance. There is Inspire. Now there is Zepbound. There are so many options. We can do even lifestyle changes. I can tell you your sleeping position that will reduce sleep apnea, and that depends on how severe your sleep apnea is. But I'm like, how about we get tested? Then we can talk about the severity and the options that you qualify for. If someone does have a mild sleep apnea, what position is best? Yeah, so I tell them to stay off the back. The back is a dangerous position if you have sleep apnea. You can sleep on the left, on the right, it doesn't matter. If you have reflux, I tell them to stay on the left lateral side, but for sleep apnea, side is your friend. You wanna stay with your head elevated. If you have a bed that can do that, you angulate the bed, or you use a couple of pillows. But you wanna stay away from the back because of the effect of gravity in contributing to that upper airway collapse. Yeah. I, I thank you for going over that. I don't think enough people realize that, right? I feel like the only time that anatomy gets highlighted is when women are pregnant, and they're like, "Don't be in this position." And you're like, "Oh, my God," Right ... "I don't wanna kill the baby," right? But other than that- Yeah ... it's so fascinating to hear you go through that. Do you think that there are things that people commonly do that they think are helping, but you're like, "Oh, no, that's not helping"? Yeah, so what is the sleeping position, actually? A lot of people think that when they sleep on their back, they're doing well, but, no, they're not. And then another thing is when people try to get in bed too early when they're unable to fall asleep. That is a big one, and, you know, they, they think that, hey, if I go to... I went to bed at 10:00 PM. I couldn't sleep until 11, so maybe I should go to bed at 9, so I can then sleep at 10. It doesn't work that way. You will only increase how much time you're being awake, and that even worsens insomnia. So you want to align with your circadian rhythm. If you're falling asleep around 11:00 PM, it just means that that is your set biological clock. Now- If you want to shift your biological clock, then that's a different topic altogether. We can shift it with light therapy, with melatonin, and things like that. So you want to follow what your body is doing. Now, supplements are another big thing out there, right? People taking lots of supplements thinking it's going to help them fall asleep or stay asleep without necessarily asking questions like, "Why am I not sleeping well?" You want to address the main reason why you're not sleeping well, not just treating that symptom there. Yeah. Yeah, it's so tough because I, I'll speak from my own experience. I al- I'm, I'm, like, not gonna throw patients out there. For me, it's like I notice if stress is up in life, sleep will get affected. Yeah. And it's not that I can't go to sleep, it's not that I'm not tired, it's, it'll be this fragmentation, right? Yeah. And I notice... So I've had to work over years changing my life, and it's like that's not an easy thing- Right ... to consistently not have stress get past a certain boiling point, right? So- Yeah I really, i- if, if you're listening and you're like, "Gosh, this all sounds great, but it's really hard," yeah, these things are incremental over time. Mm-hmm. And you're mentioning a bunch because you're a specialist in this, but anyone who's listening, this stuff is hard to change over time how much do you think screens matter at night? 'Cause, you know, I feel like you hear a lot of like, "Put the screen away," and I know me and my husband, we love to watch a little Netflix on the iPad in bed. What's the... Yeah. Yes. I have to be honest with you, there are people who watch screens and still don't have any problems falling asleep. However, if you're having problems falling asleep, then I talk about that because that may be playing a role. And how does that affect your sleep? Two main ways, right? The one many people know about is, like, light and, you know, getting into your face and all of that. The second main thing is about what it's doing to the brain. It is... So especially if you're watching something you love, you're interested in, that just engages the brain. Now, the center in the brain that is responsible for wakefulness is the same center for processing, for planning, for thinking, for excitement. And so when you engage in anything that excites you, that makes you happy, that makes you active in your thinking and all of that, that just turns your wakefulness center on. And so it becomes difficult for you to fall asleep. The same thing applies with stress and ruminating, thinking before bed. You're engaging the brain, and so you just literally turned on that wakefulness switch, and so it's going to be difficult for you to fall asleep. Do you... Okay, I love that you just explained. Thank you for that, with the kind of where it's positioned in the same spot. I, I just- Yeah ... love, it's... All of this always makes sense. We don't realize it, but we're really complicated. Yeah ... are there any things that you recommend for people that are helpful for people to relax at night? Like, I know for me, I really love just, like, coloring. It's, like, these adult coloring books. Can't be too big, not too small. It's like there's these perfect books that I like, and it's so mindless. It's just like you- Yeah ... kind of zone out. You know, can have something on in the back. But are there things that you find are... that, that benefit patients typically? Yes. So I like recommending books. However, these are not interesting books. These are books you don't care for, things that bore you, essentially, right? Because, again, if you're engaged in something you love, you're interested in, your mind engages, and then you stay awake. I tell patients, pick up a manual. Pick up a book you've never heard about. Something really boring. And then podcasts. Podcasts are great. Again, nothing interesting. That's the goal. If you like painting, sometimes I say, "Okay, how about we do some facial, take a shower, get your facials done. Just relax." Whatever makes you feel good, happy, relaxed, that is what you wanna engage in one to two hours before bed. I, I, it's so funny that you bring up pod- I'm a podcast fiend. And before I got mar- I mean, this is, like, 10-plus years ago, but before I got married, I would listen to podcasts when I went to sleep. And they... And I would set, what, like, a 20-minute timer or something, and I just know it would be like brr in the back. Your... It's, it's like- Yeah ... the calming voices. You know, I knew, like- Yeah ... these podcasts are good, are good for the evening time. Yeah. Um, but that, yeah, it's so varied, so I like that you bring up... I'm, I'm not that into, like, doing the facials and stuff like that, but I know that some women, they love that, and so it's, like, it's, they feel great and the calming and all the things. So, so, okay. Before... I know we've talked a lot today, and I wanna ask you a million more questions. But let's- ... jump to the rapid fire because- Yeah these are just things that are trending, you hear about 24/7. And so- ... with this, right, these are, like, popular sleep, uh, practices or topics. Can you say if they're helpful, harmful, or do you think they're over-hyped, or, no, this is worth it, right? So, like, kinda yay or nay. All right. Okay. So the first one on here, mouth taping Um, nay. Why? You know, because a lot of people are using it to treat snoring. However, it doesn't treat sleep apnea if you have snoring, so you're just taping your mouth. You're not gonna hear the sound of the snore, but you're still getting obstructions behind, and that is dangerous. Yeah. So yeah, no. Okay, I never understood. I was like, I don't, I don't get why this has taken off. Um, next one, magnesium, right? You hear about this 24/7. Yeah, overrated, highly, because again, why are you not sleeping, but you want magnesium to take care of it? So we wanna find out why before we talk about are you deficient. If you're not deficient, why are you taking it, so yeah. Totally. Yeah. What about white noise? White noise, yes. I like it. I'm glad you agree 'cause my son, that's... He needs, like, he needs so- some- something playing. Yeah. Like... Okay, that's good to hear. What about hitting the snooze button? No, because again, we wanna stick to a consistent wake-up time. Okay. That's the key. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. What about the, the wearable sleep scores, right? Uh-huh. Where people are like, "Oh, I want this high number." Yes. Also very overrated Okay, let me give this example. I don't know how much time we have, right? So you woke up, you feel well-rested. You're like, "Ooh, what a great day. I feel great." Then you look at the wristwatch, and it says sleep score is 60. Now your whole countenance is different. You're like, "Hmm, I didn't sleep well today." Yeah. So I see that a lot in my patients, depending on these wearables to tell them how they're feeling. Now, does it help? I like it when it helps. It shows me, okay, someone has atrial fibrillation. I'm like, "Okay, let's go get an EKG," things like that. Your oxygen is dipping at night. I'm like, "Okay, you might have sleep apnea. Let's go get you tested." Yeah. I like it for those reasons, but for other reasons, it's just what your sleep score is saying, that's not, what I want you to focus on. Yeah. So I'm hearing screening, super helpful. If we can catch something- Yes ... no, but not depending on it. I agree with you. I think it's the same thing with nutrition and other things, that we externalize the experience, and then- Mm ... we don't have any faith in ourself, and the, so the self-trust is totally eroded. Yes, and sometimes what's funny is people want these really high scores, and I'm like, but that's a really high amount of REM. That would be abnormal if you were you know, if you're, if you're getting certain things. So there, too- Right ... it kind of falls apart. Yeah. What about naps? Naps, yes and no. Sometimes people need it, especially when I'm helping them with insomnia and CBTI, but the goal at the end of the day is to eliminate the nap so that I can consolidate their nighttime sleep. So- Okay ... it depends. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. What about, if someone let's say that they, they're sleeping in separate rooms, because there might be a scenario for that. What's your thought on that? I would say no, not ideal. Because if it's snoring that is separating them, causing a sleep divorce, we can treat sleep apnea if they ha- we can even treat snoring if you- Wait, I've never heard it called a sleep divorce. Is that the na- is that what you...? That is the name. That is the name. Okay. Sleep divorce. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. It is, yeah. And so most times it's about snoring. One partner is like, "I don't want your snoring. It's too loud. It's bothersome. Let me go to the next room." We can treat that. We can treat your snoring. If you don't have sleep apnea, we can get you an oral appliance, and that can bring the two people back together. Yeah. Perfect what about, and this is a hard one to answer, but what about, s- sleep pills? . So, you know, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine released a new guideline for insomnia, and they say that if you start medication, there has to be some kind of behavioral approach alongside. So you cannot just start medications and walk away, because it's not the gold standard. So CBT-I is the gold standard. Sleeping pills have a role. They should really be used short-term and not long-term, because it's not... when they did the studies, they found that CBT-I helped people fall asleep quicker, and the effect lasted longer than sleeping pills. And what you do see commonly with sleeping pills is that they start, they feel great, but then in a, a month later, they want a higher dose, and some time later they want a different medication. And so most people come to me when they've tried a whole lot of things. And so I'm like, "So you see, that's not what you need." Yeah. And so, yeah, you need it short-term, or you could get it short-term, but your goal eventually is to get off it. I love that you bring up how the approach needs to be together. I find that's like with pretty much 99% of things in medicine it's almost like there's three legs to the table. Okay, great, medicine is one, but there's the, that other two-thirds,- yes ... and a- I see this exactly with the sleep, how at first it's great, and then you need more and more, and it's like at some point it's detrimental to you do you think that there's anything that we didn't talk about today where you're like, "Mm, this is important," like a 101 on sleep that people should hear? I think we got everything, honestly. And then, where we both meet is the, the, the place of sleep apnea and weight gain. That's probably one thing I don't think we talked about, the role of treating any kind of sleep disorder if you're wanting to lose weight. A lot of people focus on diet, exercise, but their sleep is not quite there, and that might be the missing thing for them. Making sure they're getting at least seven hours. The recommended timeframe is seven to nine hours. Making sure they're treating any kind of sleep disorder that is affecting the quality of their sleep, very, part of the foundation if you want to maximize all your efforts in your weight loss journey. I like how you phrase that, if you wanna maximize your efforts, 'cause no one wants to shoot themselves in the foot. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So you have shared so much amazing information. There are gonna be people that wanna see you. How can they find out more about your clinic, you? What are the best avenues for that? Okay, great. So I have my private practice in Indiana, so it's at 9240 North Meridian Street, Indianapolis, and you can find me on social media. I'm on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. Just type my name, Dr. Akudo Ndukwe, and you can find me on any of these platforms, or you can type Dreamland Health and Wellness on all of these platforms, and you will definitely find me. Perfect. Is your website the same, what you just said- Yes ... at, like- Yep. Is it? Yep. Okay. Www.dreamlandhealthandwellness.com. Yes. Okay, perfect. We're gonna... Anyone who's listening, we're gonna make sure in the show notes, so below where you're listening- Yeah ... right now, or you can go to rentiaclinic.com/blog. All of her, handles and website, all of that will be linked, so you don't need to worry if you're driving or kinda however you're listening to this, you can still catch all of that. Thank you so much for coming on today. I know that everyone's- Mm ... gonna have learned a ton of things, and just thank you for taking the time. Thank you so much. It was so much fun being here,