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You're doing everything "right." The morning walks happen consistently. The protein goals get met. The water bottle stays within arm's reach. Yet when you step on the scale, the number stares back at you unchanged—for the third week in a row.

It’s the dreaded weight loss plateau. It can feel like all your progress has come to a grinding halt, leaving you frustrated, doubting yourself, and wondering if your efforts are even worth it. But plateaus aren’t proof that you’ve failed—they’re actually a normal and necessary part of the journey.

In this blog, we’ll explore what’s really happening in your body during a plateau, why the usual “just eat less and move more” advice can actually backfire, and how a simple mindset shift from “stalled” to maintaining can change everything. You’ll also learn practical, data-driven strategies to help you break through plateaus and keep moving forward without burning out.

What Constitutes a “Plateau”?

There’s no universally accepted definition of a weight loss plateau, even among obesity medicine physicians. In my practice, I define a true plateau as this: you’ve been consistently doing all the right behaviors for at least three to four weeks—and absolutely nothing is changing. That means no movement on the scale, no shift in body composition, no reduction in measurements. Nothing.

This distinction is crucial because many people think they’ve plateaued when what they’re really experiencing are normal fluctuations, or when they haven’t been consistent long enough to see results.

When a genuine plateau does occur, it’s usually biological. Your body is essentially saying, “I’d rather not release any more weight right now.” During this time, hormones often reset—ghrelin (which signals hunger) may calm down, and cortisol (a stress hormone) may decrease, since sustained weight loss is stressful on the system.

The Power of Reframing: You’re Maintaining, Not Failing

Instead of telling yourself you’re “stalled” or “plateaued,” try reframing it as you’re maintaining.

Maintenance is not failure—it’s a skill. Most people are gaining weight over time. If you’ve figured out how to stop that trend, you’ve already made significant progress. In fact, maintenance is often the hardest part of weight management, and you’re doing it successfully.

This isn’t just positive self-talk—it’s backed by evidence. When patients use body composition analysis, they’re often relieved to see that while the scale hasn’t moved, they’ve lost fat and gained muscle. That’s heading in the right direction, even if the number looks the same.

A Data-Driven Approach to Breaking Through

Once you’ve confirmed it’s a true plateau, resist the temptation to overhaul everything. Instead, come back to the data.

I recommend tracking for two weeks:

• Nutrition: what and when you’re eating
  
  
• Hydration
  
  
• Sleep quality
  
  
• Stress levels (rate 1–10 daily)
  
  
• Movement
  
  

This exercise isn’t about shaming yourself. It’s about spotting patterns your memory tends to gloss over. After those two weeks, look for one area where you can make a 10% improvement.

Maybe your hydration slipped, your step count could be nudged up, or evening snacks crept back in. Choose that one adjustment, stick with it for a few weeks, and then reevaluate. This small, methodical approach is far more sustainable than trying to change everything at once.

Why “More Restriction” Usually Backfires

One of the biggest myths about plateaus is that the answer is always “eat less, exercise more.” In reality, this often makes things worse.

Your body may already be overstressed from sustained weight loss. Adding severe calorie restriction or excessive workouts can drive cortisol higher and make your body hold onto weight even more tightly.

Sometimes, the best move is counterintuitive: ease up. Reduce the intensity of strength training, swap some workouts for restorative walks or swimming, and build in more relaxation. Stress reduction can be the key that allows your body to move forward again.

The Role of Professional Support

Plateaus are where professional guidance becomes especially valuable. In the first six months to two years of a weight care journey, challenges pop up constantly. Having an obesity medicine specialist means you’re not navigating them alone.

A specialist can:

• Help you identify progress beyond the scale.
  
  
• Adjust your plan with a wide toolbox of interventions (not just medications).
  
  
• Reframe your thinking when you’re convinced nothing is working.
  
  

I’ve had patients come in apologizing for “failing,” only to discover they’ve lost significant fat while preserving muscle. That’s not failure—that’s exactly the outcome we want.

Busting the Medication Myths

One harmful trend I see is people stopping their medication during plateaus, assuming it “isn’t working anymore.” This couldn’t be further from the truth.

The medication is working. It’s helping suppress appetite, improve fullness signals, and offset insulin resistance. It’s helping you maintain progress.

Think of it like blood pressure or cholesterol medications—they don’t drive numbers to zero; they stabilize them. Obesity medications work the same way. If you haven’t reached your goal, the solution is usually adding another intervention, not ditching the one that’s keeping you stable.

The Long View Matters

I know this journey firsthand. I’ve been working on my weight set point for about six years. Some years I’ve lost 10 pounds, others 20 or 30. Progress hasn’t always been linear—but persistence has paid off.

Months without scale changes don’t mean you’re stuck forever. They’re opportunities to strengthen habits, reinforce routines, and keep moving forward. As one of my patients once told me: “There is no option to stop.”

That daily recommitment—choosing to keep going regardless of the number on the scale—is what creates long-term success.

Listen to my full conversation with Dr. Lindsay Ogle, where we break down the realities of weight loss plateaus, the myths that keep people stuck, and the strategies that actually help you move forward with confidence.

TRANSCRIPT:

Disclaimer: The transcript below is provided for your convenience and may contain typos, errors, or grammatical inconsistencies, as it has not been professionally edited or proofread. Please enjoy it as-is and read at your own discretion.

Please note: The content shared in this podcast and blog post is for informational and educational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider for personalized medical guidance. 

 
 Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. Today I'm really excited to air an interview where Dr. Lindsay Ogle, she actually interviews me and we talk about maintenance and what is a weight loss plateau, what are some strategies that you can bust through that plateau? And I think that this is just a really practical good aspect.

We do talk a little bit about the mindset aspect as well. Just really how fatiguing it is to constantly be trying so hard and sometimes. Things are just not working out in the direction that you want. So I hope that you enjoy this interview today. Just a reminder, Dr. Ogle, she was on my podcast. I interviewed her, I think this was however many months ago, or maybe even a year ago at this point.

And we talked about the importance of preventative medicine, especially when someone struggles from either overweight or obesity. Because we know that there is so much shame in healthcare that people are engaging with the healthcare system less. And I know this firsthand myself.

It's something that is such an unfortunate reality that I hope that we're starting to change this over time. But anyway, so that was a great interview, so we'll make sure in the show notes to link back to that episode as well if you didn't catch that. But I hope that you enjoy today's episode and that you are having a great week and I'll see you again Friday for your Friday five.

 Okay, I am so excited. Today's guest is Dr. Matea Rania. She is an amazing double board certified internal medicine and obesity medicine physician, and she sees patients in Indiana and Illinois. Through her clinic,, the Rania Metabolic Clinic, and she sees patients virtually in those two states. She also has a wonderful podcast,, the Obesity Guide with Matta.

Tia and I have personally listened to all of her podcasts. She has great information. Practical knowledge that you can apply. And she was gracious enough to have me on a couple of months ago to talk about wellness and wellness exams and screenings, and I'm so excited to have her on today to share more knowledge.

And we're gonna talk about a really important topic, weight loss plateaus. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. I love watching the interviews that you're doing with everybody. , They're so high quality. Thank you. So I'd love to hear, I guess we'll just start with what, a weight loss plateau is and what's actually going on in the background.

Is it biological? Is it behavioral? What's happening? Yeah, so what I wanna say with this is there's not a standard definition of a weight loss plateau, right? So that's what's tricky is that, I'll say what I think, but we could get five obesity medicine physicians in the room and everyone would disagree.

So I, I do think that the first thing that really, needs to be looked at here is that you are consistently doing the behaviors for weeks on end, and nothing is changing, and I'm talking nothing. So I would say for my clinic, it's at least. Three to four weeks. So we kind of reach that month mark and you're consistently hitting the water goals, the exercise goals, the nutrition.

It's not like, oh, well two, three days a week. Things are kind of happening in a way. I don't know what's happening. I'm kind of out of control. And then the other days I'm okay. It's really, you're always sort of doing those things and nothing is moving. And this is really usually when, when the behaviors are in place.

And nothing's been moving. It's a biologic thing that's happening. So your body is sort of usually getting to a place where it says, I would rather not really release anymore right now. And people fight this. It's normal. It's natural to get to plateaus. And what I find is because this. This is a time when your hormones can reset during that time.

So for example, like ghrelin that says you're hungry, start eating. Sometimes ghrelin can calm down. Some you can, sometimes cortisol levels can go down because you can be quite stressed actually losing a bunch of weight. You're normally like exercising a lot and you know, doing a ton of things that put stress on the body.

And so I would say for four weeks you are doing all the things. Nothing is moving. And I'm talking re compositions are not happening. Like body fat's not going down, muscles not going up, inches are not going down. Nothing is changing. That would be what I would define as a weight loss plateau. Thank you so much for going over that.

That is really helpful information and I know, you know, so many people are really just looking at the number on the scale and like you mentioned, there is so much more going on and I know you do a lot of body composition analysis with your patients and I think that's very important to get a true and accurate picture of what's happening because the number on the scale may be stagnant, but actually there's some recomposition happening and that's a positive thing.

Yes. And people, whenever they're using body composition, they're so grateful to know that because they think nothing has changed. Right? So everyone that's listening, what we're talking about is, last month compared to this month, the net number, meaning when you just hop on a scale, the number you're seeing looks the same, but they might have.

Lost a pound of fat and put on a pound of muscle, that is you heading in a healthy direction. That is actually hard work, but you are thinking nothing's different, but really you got healthier. And if you were to keep sticking with that, even if nothing else changed and you kept going in that direction in a few years, you'd be in a radically different spot.

Yeah, absolutely. That's so powerful and I can imagine when somebody hits a weight loss plateau or a stall or whatever we wanna call it, that is incredibly frustrating and can be demoralizing. Especially if we, are not looking at body composition or if we are, and that hasn't been changing either.

Do you have any, you know, go-to recommendations for your patients when they reach a weight loss plateau? Yeah. So first of all, a hundred percent what you're saying, how people are so discouraged because you're, everyone's working hard, right? It's like there's so many things that have to change to ever get any traction.

So, alright, let's say you notice that you're, you're at a stall or a plateau. I would like to use the term instead of that, that you're maintaining. So instead of being like, I'm stalled, like when we say that it's so dramatic. It makes us feel shame. Like it's just so many things. So I like to say you've been maintaining.

Which is beautiful by the way, because if you look at data, most people are gaining, not maintaining. So you have figured out how to maintain yay to that. So I always say we come back to the data. So this is a time to let our emotions to the side a little bit, kind of put that down and come back to data.

So my recommendation would be about a two week period, 14 days. Can you track what you're eating? Not only what you're eating, but when you're eating it. Hydration your asleep, your stress levels rate at one to 10 every day. You know, 'cause you, you might have a period where you're super stressed and then you can see that with the data.

So you do this for two weeks and you don't even necessarily need to measure and weigh everything. What we're really first trying to look for when you write out those two weeks, it's not to shame or make radical changes at first, it's to be able to find patterns. So the problem is when we look back, like hindsight with our brain.

We think we're really accurate at what we're, kind of pulling out. And we're usually not. So when we have it written out, we can say, oh, look at this. Every single evening I'm having a snack at night when I'm not hungry. Or I've been starting to like double up on whatever portion, or my hydration fell off a cliff.

Like I thought I was doing great in the winter. I really prioritize it. Suddenly in the summer, I forgot it exists. Right? Or vice versa. And so you look through there and then I would say you take one thing and you look for a 10% change. So that could be my step count is this and I'm gonna increase it by so much.

My hydration is this and I increase it by two cups. It's not radical shifts in everything. You can't maintain it. So once you have those two weeks, what's the one area that I think it would give some traction? What's the 10% change? And then you repeat the process. Uh, maybe, you know, doing, putting that.

Thing into place for a few weeks, and then you look back, did it make a difference or not? And you look at the data, not do I feel it's different or not? What is the data actually showing me? That's always, I always say it tells the truth What's happening? Yeah, absolutely. I love everything you just said, and I wanna go back to what you said in the beginning about just using different terminology instead of saying a weight loss plateau or a stall, like you said, that it has a negative connotation to it, but really if we frame it as weight maintenance, which we know in the field of obesity medicine is.

Sometimes the hardest part and often is the hardest part. And I just did a podcast with, , the Plus Sides podcast, earlier this week. That was great. I'm so excited for it to come out. But we kind of touched on this and how, , if we, you know, so we get to a weight loss plateau and., Reframing that mindset and what if we did maintain, you know, moving forward, how much healthier we would be long-term, that big picture versus if we were going back to kind of like the yo-yo dieting that was happening before we had, you know, our really effective tools like our GLP one agonist.

Because previously. The weight maintenance was so difficult to achieve and now we're actually getting to a point where so many people are able to get to that point where the weight maintenance is really the goal and you know where people are at. And so I think it we're just not used to it.

Totally. It wasn't achievable before. Right? At least I'll speak to my own journey. 'cause I'm a patient as much as I am a physician with this and I could never maintain what I had lost. It didn't matter how little or big it was. Like, it would be like two seconds of staying there would be right back up, right?

So the, the fact of maintaining it, it is a big deal. But I know that everyone always wants it to go quicker. Like there's this, push. I actually asked this online the other day and I got some really interesting responses, but I said. Why the urgency? Like, what is this where we, within a year need to have lost a hundred pounds and people had a lot of good responses, but at the end of the day, I, I don't think people quite realize what a lifetime commitment this is.

Like this disease unfortunately isn't going anywhere. And so we have to manage it for life. So the quicker we can get on board that there's gonna be times when things don't move. There's gonna be times when I'm frustrated. There's gonna be maybe some,, like backslides involved, you know, some regains for valid.

Reasons. The quicker we can get on board with that, I think we move past the things a lot quicker when we stop, like resisting. It's actually like a lot of energy to be resisting things. Absolutely. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on how beneficial it could be to work with an obesity medicine physician or you know, a really great primary care physician or, just having a healthcare team during, the long haul of managing the chronic disease of obesity.

Totally. So the thing is, when you're not working with a specialist, they can write you a medication. They can kind of see you, I don't know, every three months, six months, you know, things like that. The problem is, the challenges are endless in weight care, especially, I would say, and I wonder what your thoughts are on this, but especially in the first two years, , and especially the first six months to year, I mean, that's just like a hotbed zone, right?

Like side effects and all of that. But. Also the mental mindset of like, how do I keep going? What pivots can be made? And so when you work with someone instead of something. , Thinking, oh, this medication doesn't work for me. Or, oh, I'm doing all these things and they're not working. We're able to just constantly pivot and make changes 'cause we have a lot more in our toolbox compared to someone that's not doing this all day long.

And I think that people think it's just a med and it's like, uh, no, there's about like thousand other tools. And so that person can adjust things for you more, can help you realize that you're not alone. Can help reframe things like, this is literally 90% of what I'm doing monthly in the, clinic with my patients.

It's looking at the data. They think it's not that good. I, I literally just had a visit with someone since February. They've lost 20 pounds of fat and only half a pound of muscle. That's phenomenal. Like, that's phenomenal. And they're like, well, I didn't know. And I'm like, listen. I was like, 'cause they're like, oh, you're not gonna be happy with me.

'cause the muscle had gone down a little, right? And I was like, no, I'm very right. I'm like, I'm very happy. This is so good. Compared to the sort of like national averages that we would expect with muscle loss. So. When you're working with someone, I find people make faster progress long term. They feel really capable and secure instead of feeling like at any moment the weight's coming back.

'cause that's a real concern with people that they, they feel like at any moment they're just like stumble on the weight returning. Right. And they don't realize, like I call it this list of a hundred, you are doing so many things to get a different result, but when you're not working with a specialist, you don't realize all that.

And then very quickly you go back to things that don't support you. Yeah, a hundred percent. And what I see often in my practice is that, well a couple things. Patients are often comparing their journey to others that they're seeing on social media or their friends or family members. And you know, as you know, everybody is different.

Even if you're on the. Same dose of the same medication, you're gonna have a different response. And, and that's okay because you have a different biology and you know, other factors in your life. So that is something I'm constantly reminding people is that,, we're gonna have different, a different journey and, and that's okay 'cause we're tailoring your treatment to you and what's best for you.

Also I see the kind of like the finish line or the goal move over time. Yeah. And I have to remind people where we started and what that initial goal was, because often they're already past that initial goal. Yeah. They're still frustrated because, they've seen that success and they've, had.

That change and then they change the goal. But we need to acknowledge and celebrate the fact that, we have already got that initial goal and because we've done so well, then that new goal popped up, which is okay, and that may be appropriate. But you didn't fail because you haven't reached the second or third goal that you created for your.

Totally. You know, something that you bring up this where the goalpost moves. 'cause I see this too with every single patient. I think it's really important when you're starting, I call it a wait care journey, but when you're starting this journey mm-hmm. You need to write down an inventory of where things stand at that moment.

Because I want you, like, I want you to write down things like. I'm waking up a lot at night. My sleep quality's bad, my knees are hurting. It's hard to breathe when I walk. I, went to the kids' school and couldn't walk the whole field during field day, whatever these things are, because you're gonna forget it in a hot second, and then you don't know how far you've come and you can celebrate that.

You can come back to that at any time, but if you never wrote it down, it's really hard to sort of like retrospectively go back and try to remember because we just don't have great brains with memory. No, and I think that that's why working with a physician who is solely focused on that is gonna be so beneficial because,, I think most of us try to keep detailed notes and we know what your symptoms were in the beginning and we're able to compare that over time and, remind you of, those non-scale victories as well, which are so important.

Yeah. I would love to hear some of the myths that you've heard about weight loss plateaus or maintenance phase on, whether that's why it's happening or strategies to overcome it, and, and why they're not true, and then maybe some better ways to approach it. I think probably if I had to think about kind of like myths or like the things that people think are needed, but that a lot of the time don't work, but it's counterintuitive, right?

Would be that people think that more restriction is always the answer. So they assume because we've really been indoctrinated with this calories and in calories out, which I'm not denying the realities of energy, right? But, but there's a lot of. Factors that go into our weight set point and things like that.

And so people, their first reaction is restrict more, and exercise more. So restrict the food and exercise more. And what's interesting is sometimes, a lot of the time, the reason you even got into the plateau is 'cause your body's overly stressed. Like it's a stress to even lose weight, to, to have that fat release.

It's a stress. Some of the things that you're asking yourself, you might be waking up earlier in the morning to exercise. There's a lot that's going on. And so. When you then push even harder, your body's like, now we're gonna shut down even more. So that's what I see is that instead of like, the best results I see are when people just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use the term chill out very medical, but, but it's like, ironically, it's like, let's not, strength train five days a week.

Let's cut that back a little bit. Let's take some, just, let's call it low cortisol walks. Let's do some walks, let's do some swimming. Let's do other things. Let's get you,, other hobbies to relax. Let's actually take the focus off of this for a moment. Not that we're abandoning self. I always say, I'm like, we're still doing nutrition.

We're still doing these things, but we change the focus and a lot of the time. Even that stress reduction helps people to keep going. Um, and you're able to see more clearly what it is you wanna do, but this instant reaction of I decrease food and I increase movement, that's not necessarily the answer that's gonna get people there.

That's the biggest one I see. What do, what do you typically, like, what are people's reaction in your clinic when they reach that? Yeah, I think that's the number one as well that I see. And that's just, diet culture ingrained in all of us. And also what we sometimes hear on social media. I also wanna mention, I guess, kind of on social media and thinking about the stress response.

I've had a few patients recently who. Just clearly, and they, , voice it. And it's also clear to me when they're talking is they just are in inundated with so much information, so much advice from all different angles and different perspectives, some of it evidence-based, some of it not, and they are stressed out that they are making the wrong decision.

They're hurting their adrenal glands or oh God, whatever. And it, it just is, it's negatively impacting them. And my advice is just to, you know, stop, stop following all of these people, and listen to yourself. You know, they ha they already have all the knowledge that they need and we just need to pare it down and, focus on the things that are really gonna have the biggest impact.

And those are the simple things, we don't need to be worried about, ? Every single plastic that's,, hitting, our bodies or anything like that., So I, that's something that I've been seeing,, a lot lately. Yeah, it's so true. I feel like, and then they'll, they'll catch weird trends that are happening.

So like, I don't know if you, , ever talked about this here recently, but there was this period where people were like, stop the meds and then come back to it a month later and restart the titration. And I never see it happen worse than when we have to do that with someone. And that's for bad reasons, right?

Like they'll get a surgery or, you know. There's different scenarios where that would be medically needed, but people think that that quote unquote jumpstart things. And I'm like, that can't be further from the truth. But one person did it that went viral, and then everyone thinks that that's the case. And so I feel like,, what you're talking about with the taking breaks from social.

You just have to, because every video or thought that you're hearing, you have to manage it when it comes in. That's a lot to manage, especially when everyone's in a different direction with what they're doing. Yeah, absolutely. I think the other thing I would say with, you know, stopping the medicine and then maybe restarting later on, another myth, I, you know.

C would be that people say that the medicine is no longer working and, I, I'm not losing any more weight. So the medicine's not working. And that's not true. The medicine is working. The medicine is still helping with appetite suppression, helping with fullness, helping offset insulin resistance, and it's helping you maintain.

And that's how. Every other in primary care, that's how every other chronic me medicine works. , For chronic conditions like high blood pressure or cholesterol, they don't keep,, treating that chronic condition until, whatever it's treating goes down to zero. It gets it controlled.

And so the same thing with our medications for obesity. And then if we still are not at our. Goal, whatever that is, that you decide,, as the patient and with your healthcare provider, then sometimes we do need to add on another medication and it's so it's adding and not substituting. Totally, totally.

Yeah. I think when you're going on this journey on the way up. Not relying on, oh, I'm so super suppressed. I can hardly eat. That's not what we're going for. Mm-hmm. And so if you, there, there are some of my patients that they love that, right? Like on the way up they're like, oh, I really feel it's working.

I'm like. Let's not fall in love with that and let's make sure that the dose is low enough where you're getting in whole based foods. We want it as a tool. It's a help metabolically, but this is not, we create disordered eating where you're not eating and suddenly you think that that's amazing that you know that's when the scale drops.

It's like that's not sustainable long term. You lose muscle that way. It's not healthy. Oh, I mean, there's many ways in which that's problematic, but that is not the reason that we're using the medications. And I think that gets glorified online as well. This like, I couldn't eat, I forgot to eat for three days.

It's like, no, that's not amazing at all. That's unhealthy. No, no. Not good. Not good. Well thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this important topic. Do you have any last thoughts or any, , words of hope for patients who may be on this journey and maybe in maintenance phase? I'm gonna provide my own story here for a second.

'cause I think that, I think, and again, I, I feel like part of what we've talked about here, how social kind of messes us up. So my journey has been something I've been working on my weight set point for about six years now. And , it was like 10 pounds a year. 10 pounds a year. 10 pounds a year. 20 pounds, 30 pounds.

The point is. Just keep going. Just because you have months on end where the scale is not changing, you can still be working on habits, you can still be becoming a different person. It doesn't mean that that's where you're gonna stay. So part of what you need to work on is the belief that you are gonna be a different person.

That you are really solidifying things, that it's no longer a question anymore, that you get your protein or that you get your fiber, that you do your morning walk, whatever it looks like for you in your scenario. You keep moving forward regardless. And the length of time that you're in that maintenance phase, it's not an indication of where you're gonna land long term.

And I think if that's something really important to hear, because I think sometimes we hear data like, well, within the first six months to one year, that's where you're gonna end up. I don't find that to be true. The people that keep going, like I had a patient say to me one time, she said, there is no option to stop.

She's like, you know, I'm gonna keep coming to visits, I'm gonna keep doing stuff. That's the attitude of the person that's gonna make it long-term, because this requires every day a renewal of commitment to what you're doing. And so don't let the length of the stall, the plateau, whatever name you wanna give it, don't let that define you Every day there's a new sense of you can keep going and make this happen.

So I just talk about my own story because like I don't hear anyone talk about it in that way where I feel like I just keep going. And,, I think that that's really important for people to hear that it doesn't have to be this one person that. Lose is a hundred in a year. You can keep going. You can still reach your goals.

Thank you so much for that, and thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your story. I think it's very helpful for many people who,, may be likely to give up if they're not having those results, that they see other people have those immediate results. But again, we're thinking big picture, you're. Long health and that's what our focus is, , in obesity medicine.

So thank you so much again. And how can people find you if they wanna to find reliable and helpful information on socials? Yeah, so I spend a lot of my time on TikTok, but TikTok and Instagram, I have the same username. It's. Matta and t MD on both of those. And then the best place to find me is really on my website, rent tia clinic.com.

And it, , there, if you click on a podcast, you can find the links to Apple and Spotify and all of that. And I really, my podcast, the obesity guy with Matta and Tia md. I put a lot of energy into it. 'cause I really think that, you know, just like the work you're doing, we do not have enough evidence-based compassionate knowledge, but that's also like interesting and you actually wanna listen to, right?

And so if that's something where you're looking for sort of like continued support, I think that that would be, a good resource for people. Yeah, highly recommend it. Like I said, I've listened to all the episodes and learned so much, so I appreciate the work that you're doing. Thank you again. Thanks so much for having me on.